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June 25, 2005

Who's on first?

-- by Gary Boatwright

I'm a little confused about who Karl Rove was talking about when he said "liberals" wanted to "offer therapy and understanding for our attackers."

On Hardball Dan Bartlett told Nora O'Donnell that Rove was only talking about extremist liberal groups like Move On, so he didn't understand why Democrats were complaining.

But a press release put out by Ken Mehlman listed statements by the following Democrats that were "concrete examples of liberals' failed responses to the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001":

Rep. Dennis Kucinich (D-OH), Rep. Neil Abercrombi (D-HI), Rep. Barbara Lee (D-CA), Rep. Marcy Kaptur (D-OH), Sen. Biden (D-DE), Sen. Kerry (D-MA), Sen. Patty Murray (D-WA) and Howard Dean.

So which is it? Was Rove criticizing Democrats or "extremist liberals" or both?

Posted by Gary Boatwright at June 25, 2005 8:56 AM

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Comments

Prospect had a bit on this yesterday. Eli Pariser ran a petition with a peace group asking for restraint.

Posted by: grannyinsanity at June 25, 2005 10:30 AM

Did MoveOn even exist on 9/11/2001? What are the supposed dates for the other supposed statements? Finally, who gives a damn who Rove meant?

Posted by: MJ at June 25, 2005 11:55 AM

I believe MoveOn was created during Clinton's impeachment.

Posted by: Ryan Maynard at June 25, 2005 3:54 PM

I just visited DemocraticUnderground - I believe the man's name was Mr. Benchley, Has one awesome response to Karl Rove. Please link to this.

Posted by: Nancy at June 25, 2005 4:23 PM

Save for a few, those are hard-core stalinist-leftists

Posted by: Pericles at June 25, 2005 4:25 PM

Posted by: Pericles at June 25, 2005 4:48 PM

Posted by: Pericles at June 25, 2005 4:51 PM

What a surprise Pericles. This administration, of which Karl Rove is a member of, has messed up everything they have touched. Go post on Free Republic

Posted by: Nancy at June 25, 2005 5:01 PM

Thank-you for the tip Nancy. Benchley's retort is classic. Can YOU Pass the "Kooky Karl" Kwiz? My favorite:

3) "I don't know about you, but moderation and restraint is not what I felt when I watched the twin towers crumble to the ground, a side of the Pentagon destroyed, and almost 3,000 of our fellow citizens perish in flames and rubble." Karl told his conservative audience. Which of these noted young conservatives felt just like Karl, threw moderation and restraint aside, and joined the military immediately?

a) George P. Bush, nephew of the current White House occupant.
b) Jeb Bush Junior, nephew of the current White House occupant.
c) Billy Bush, cousin of the current White House occupant.
d) Andrew M. Rove, son of Karl Rove.
e) None of the above.

Democratic Underground is doing yeoman's work at deconstructing the chickenhawks.

To partially answer MJ's question, I worte a diary with MoveOn's actual petition and an exchange at TNR between Peter Beinart and MoveOn's Wes Boyd and Joan Blades, Democrats Who Didn't Understand 9/11.

The wingnut petition that Pericles links to is insructive about the Rovian mindset. Truth is not a part of the equation.

Posted by: GaryBoatwright at June 25, 2005 5:33 PM

Thank you Gary. Oh I did not visit Pericles link! I have much too beautiful a mind to taint it with that drivel!

Posted by: Nancy at June 25, 2005 5:38 PM

As an ex-serviceman, let me state: soldier, sailors and marines do not want recruits who do not want to be there, they get people killed. Those you cite do not want to be there, so you calling them hypocrites is really destructive. Besides, how many old lefties here went and fought in Kennedy's/Johnson's war (Vietnam)?

And the fact that recruitment is down is further proof that the economy is improving, people do not need to go to work as an underpaid soldier when they have a civilian job.

Posted by: Pericles at June 25, 2005 5:43 PM

And, to compare, who was Howard Dean speaking about when he said "I hate Republicans and everything they stand for"? If you let Dean get away with an explanation of "I was just talking about the leadership" then you have to excuse Rove for the same thing. If not, then you must organize to force Howard Dean to resign*. Otherwise you are hypocrites.

*Karl Rove would be on the bus to keep Dean BTW, Dean is the greatest recruitment tool for the GOP in a generation.

Posted by: Pericles at June 25, 2005 6:09 PM

I was married to a Marine who spent 3 and part of a 4th tours of duty in Viet Nam. He received the Silver Star, the Navy Commendation Medal with Combat V and 2 Purple Hearts, just to name a few of his medals. I've spent many a day in Veterans Hospitals.
Karl Rove gets paid Pericles, by the United States Goverment. Howard Dean gets paid by the Democrats. IF WE DEMOCRATS GET TIRED OF HOWARD WE WILL LET YOU KNOW. RIGHT NOW WE AMERICANS ARE TIRED OF ROVE!

Posted by: Nancy at June 25, 2005 6:25 PM

A small percentage of Americans, not the majority. Why do you lefties always act as if you speak for Americans?

Posted by: Pericles at June 25, 2005 7:00 PM

A small percentage of Americans, not the majority. Why do you lefties always act as if you speak for Americans?

You seem to think you can, are you a leftie?

Americans are tired of Rove, tired of Bush and tired of you.

Posted by: Nancy at June 25, 2005 7:22 PM

The economy is improveing?? Sorry...I'm histerical here.Totally histerical.I may scream this is so ......histerical. Whoes economy?? Might I ask.Yours Pericles, good for you? Mine?? Na da, ain't happining.

Posted by: Kay at June 25, 2005 7:26 PM

Pericles speak with forked tongue. He speak for army, navy and marines. He speak for Karl (turdblossom) Rove, he speak for republicans and democrats and Americans. You can tell from conversation, he is no truth teller.

Posted by: Chief at June 25, 2005 7:39 PM

Good idea Pericles. Let's compare what Howard Dean said with what Karl "Bloodthirsty Beast" Rove said.

Howard Dean was speaking for himself. He stated his opinion of his beliefs. Any rational person and all good Americans hate Republicans. They are hateful, deceitful human beings. What's not to hate?

Karl "Bloodthirsty Beast" Rove was not expressing his opinion. He was lying about what he called the "philosophy of liberals" and/or Democrats. That's a classic example of a straw man fallacy. Karl Rove invented a phony philosophy that nobody believes in and deceitfully claimed it was what liberals and/or Democrats believed.

To recap: Howard Dean, principled and honest. Karl "Bloodthirsty Beast" Rove, unprincipled and deceitful.

Posted by: GaryBoatwright at June 25, 2005 8:23 PM

Wow Pericles, I come from a long and proud line of military men, and not a single one of them was ever small enough to go out of his way to intimidate somebody they didn't even know into giving up their Constitutional right to have a different opinion than them.

They swore to uphold the Constitution from all enemies foreign and domestic. They took that oath seriously, so should you.

Because this is still the United States of America, despite This Administrations best attempts to undermine that, you are free to support incompetence, deception, and corruption and we are free to stand against it.

Posted by: grannyinsanity at June 25, 2005 9:56 PM

Substitute "Jew" for "Republican" in that bigoted little rant and you see where Gary is coming from, and where the left is going.

You hate them because they are hateful? Doesn't that make you 'hateful'? So you must hate yourself.

Posted by: Pericles at June 26, 2005 12:04 AM

Hoo-hoo, another strawman argument from one of the most persecuted species on Earth!

Poor baby, I can't believe they make you work nights.

Posted by: grannyinsanity at June 26, 2005 12:51 AM

That was a wee bit rash on my part. I apologize.

It does appear as if you are not here to have a rational discussion/debate. Your tone appears to be mean spirited and without point.

Do you something you wanted to discuss other than how awful the left is? You don't like Howard Dean?

Howard Dean is not spending your money, going through your library records or locking you out of events your tax dollars paid for.

Howard Dean is not making your decisions for you and he has no control over you what-so-ever. You do not have to like him.

Posted by: grannyinsanity at June 26, 2005 1:14 AM

grannyinsanity: please read They Don't Apologize. As far as Pericles goes, I would not socialize, drink with or allow him to buy me a drink. The same goes for Robert Novak and Dr. James Durbin. They are all hateful, detestable liars who are undeserving of the usual common courtesy shown to political opponents.

There is nothing bigoted about saying I hate Republicans and everything they stand for. There is no analogy to jews or any other ethnic group. Republicans as a group have proven themselves to be unprincipled, deceitful liars. Sen. Hagel is the only Republican politician who has stated the obvious truth that the Bush administration is out of touch with reality.

Any Republican who does not condemn Karl Rove's lies and V.P. Cheney's lies is unprincipled and does not deserve the normal respect shown to political opponents. I will not apologize and Howard Dean will not apologize. Sen. Durbin should not have apologized and neither should you.

Posted by: GaryBoatwright at June 26, 2005 6:31 AM

Don't forget that being a member of the gop like being a member of the Conservative Citizens Councile or the KKK ( but I repeat myself ) is a choice. Unlike being Jewish, Black or Gay it is not a trait one is born with.
So once again the fools on the right ignore reality and hide behind a false analogy.
Unless of course they find stupidity, cruelity and sociopathic behavior is a hereditary trait.

Posted by: Ken at June 26, 2005 8:01 AM

Ken, to be perfectly honest, there is no "Jew" gene. By Jewish *tradition*, one is a Jew if (and ONLY if) one is born to a Jewish woman--since the presumption is that Jewish women are expected to marry within the faith, then their male descendants (through either their daughters or sons) would also be "Jewish". It should be understood, though, that if one were the offspring of a Jewish father (a man whose mother was Jewish) and a non-Jewish mother, while that person might be raised as a Jew, some groups would not recognize him/her as "Jewish" (most notably, the Orthodox rabbis who set many policies regarding Israeli immigration and citizenship).
ALL religious beliefs are choices. Otherwise, there would be nothing to explain conversion (or being "born again", for that matter). And it's that "choice" aspect that really ticks me off over these Christian (and other religious) bigots who oppose gay rights and diminish those rights as being the result of some sort of "choice". No one was ever born with "Christian" or "Jewish" or "Muslim" blood, flowing through their veins--those religions are all the result of willing choices made by the adherents. I'm aware of the proposition that humans have some sort of gene that predisposes them to some form of spirituality and I'm willing to grant there may very well be, but that, in and of itself, doesn't equate to religion being a hereditary trait.

Posted by: JosephW at June 26, 2005 8:37 AM

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