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November 21, 2005

What Do We Do About Iraq?

-- by Dave Johnson

I think it is urgent that the US not have invaded Iraq. We should do absolutely everything we can to prevent the United States from having invaded Iraq. But since the U.S. already did I think that the people who engineered that invasion should be brought before the World Court and hung for the crime of committing aggressive war. Just as after WWII the world needs to SEE that this is what happens to people who start wars. And I think the entire "conservative movement" machine with its corrupt DeLay/Norquist/Reed/Abramoff lobbying/funding should be dismantled and prosecuted and imprisoned. I think democracy demands this.

That said, what do we do now? Iraq is really a no-win situation, for millions and millions of people. So looking at what should be done about Iraq I think we need to undertand that the reality is that none of us have any say over what will happen. And another reality to consider: Bush is getting ready to cut and run and retreat because The Party sees a late-2006 "War is Over" announcement as a way to keep power.

Again -- anything you or I say should happen is not relevant to what will happen. It is simply blowing hot air into the wind and nothing more.

Consider the post-withdrawal phase of what happens in Iraq and the Middle East. Bush will never allow the right thing to happen. He will never allow the UN or Europe to step in and provide sufficient peacekeepers to keep the lid on -- if Bush's cronies can't have the oil they can't either.

Suppose full-scale civil war breaks out with hundreds of thousands killed. Suppose the Shiites wipe out the Sunnis with millions dead. Suppose Iran winds up in control of central Iraq and the southern oil fields and launches full-scale war against a weakened U.S. Suppose the Kurds break out for independence and Turkey invades? None of us know if these terrible things will happen or not. All of us understand these are possible, even likely.

Now, think about this. If any of those results of withdrawal do occur, there will be an all-out right-wing noise machine effort to pin blame on those now calling for leaving, even though they none of us have any say in what happens.

So considering that this is what's most likely to happen, and considering the potential consequences of the coming Bush withdrawal, doesn't it make a lot more sense to be demanding to see Bush's plan for success in Iraq than to be calling for us to just leave? It's a question Bush can't answer - because there is no answer. So let's pin it all on him instead of us.

In summary, what we should "do" is Blame Bush. It's the only thing we CAN do.

Posted by Dave Johnson at November 21, 2005 4:57 PM

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» A Question About Withdrawal From Iraq from Seeing the Forest
I have a question for those who advocate that we "just leave" Iraq: We wrongly invaded, destroyed their infrastructure and killing hundreds of thousands. Do we pay retributions? Do we pay to rebuild the infrastructure of Iraq? Do we pay... [Read More]

Tracked on November 22, 2005 12:11 PM

» A Question About Withdrawal From Iraq from Seeing the Forest
I have a question for those who advocate that we "just leave" Iraq: We wrongly invaded, destroyed their infrastructure and killing hundreds of thousands. Do we pay reparations? Do we pay to rebuild the infrastructure of Iraq? Do we pay... [Read More]

Tracked on November 22, 2005 1:46 PM


Comments

So considering that this is what's most likely to happen, and considering the potential consequences of the coming Bush withdrawal, doesn't it make a lot more sense to be demanding to see Bush's plan for success in Iraq than to be calling for us to just leave?

No. Because not calling for immediate withdrawal is morally repellant. There is only one course of action for decent people -- demand immediate withdrawal. If you reject that, that's your problem ultimately.

Taking some calculated political course because of fear of what Rush Limbaugh will say about you (Dave, if anyone should know better, it's you) is cowardly and, like so many similar demo strategies of the past and present, guaranteed to fail both the demo party and the country.

Posted by: richard [TypeKey Profile Page] at November 21, 2005 6:05 PM

What if immediate withdrawal means a civil war that kills hundreds of thousands?

If that might happen isn't it morally repugnant to call FOR withdrawal?

It's not about fear of what might be said about me, it's about there is no way that what I think should happen can happen as long as Bush is around.

You don't know what will happen if we leave. Either do I. AND we can't have any effect on whether we leave or not. So it is not logical to call for withdrawal or not withdrawing.

The RIGHT thing is for enough peacekeepers to be there, under comand of moral leaders, applying enough mony to rebuild the country, and staying long enough for the Iraqis to build stong institutions of justice so they don't resort to civil war.. We can call for THAT with just as much possibility of it happening as any other.

Posted by: Dave Johnson [TypeKey Profile Page] at November 21, 2005 6:31 PM

What if? What if? You sound just like the repugs before the war! What if Saddan had weapons of mass destruction!

Most of the best arguments, which you simply ignore, come down on the side of our withdrawal having a calming effect. You also, more importantly, ignore the wishes of Iraqis themselves, who overwhelmingly want us out. Do they want to die? Do they ALL want to have their children killed in a civil war? Are they just dumber than YOU? Is that what you think?

You sound like Joe Biden. Isn't that enough to scare you?

Posted by: richard [TypeKey Profile Page] at November 21, 2005 6:44 PM

I'm not willing to wait while more people are killed. The Iraqis want us out. And whatever is going to happen if we leave now, is going to happen whenever we leave.

As for what the right-wingers are going to say about me, they've been saying for 40 years already. Why would I start caring now?

Posted by: Tom Marshall at November 21, 2005 7:00 PM

Yep, I agree with richard.Let's get some kind of plan here.We never had any kind of plan from day one.The motives for being there change daily.They tend to evolve.WMD,Saddam himself, etc. etc.I love the gotta stay the course argument.What is that course.It has yet to be defined.Give me a definition.As far as I can see we've met the objectives.No WMD and we got Saddam.Thousands of people are dead and gone.Innocent people.We're gonna set up a whole country for Democracy that hasn't one damn clue what that stands for.Nor did they ask for that demorcracy.Our own country chose that and fought for that,I'm grateful but it has to be a choice.No one ever said to this country you will be this thing called democrocy.It was the choice of those people that were willing to fight long and hard to make it happen.
We can give them support but we can't go on into infinity fighting every battle for them.My best guess is that if we get out of there,they'll figure out how to land on their own two feet.It's happened befor.That is not to say that we don't need to develop a plan for withdrawing our people and it doesn't have to be yesterday.It should in some way be done with some common sense.But asap.

Posted by: Anonymous at November 21, 2005 7:21 PM

"You sound like Joe Biden. Isn't that enough to scare you?"

If I agreed that I sound like Joe Biden that would indeed scare me.

"Yep, I agree with richard.Let's get some kind of plan here."

I don't think that is what Richard is saying. He says just get out.

Richard - should we continue paying to rebuild the infrastructure?

Posted by: Dave Johnson [TypeKey Profile Page] at November 21, 2005 7:29 PM

I think we should get out too.But there is going to be that little s--- fight on what is the best way to do that.There comes in the need for the plan.Ot should I say...why not the plan from day one.Now we are forced into the corner that demands a plan and low and behold we don't have one.But I would swear, there had to be a practical way to do this.We maybe could start cutting down on the deployments.We could start figureing out which of our troops to best start bringing home.Some here, some there.A time frame.A goal of some sort.For the first time I might add.We could possibly expect that the Iraqi people and or government might have some input here too.Where would they like to see us give support and where would they prefer to do things themselves.Our presence right now just seems to add to and aggravate the situation.We can't keep winning the battle and losing the war.If we don't have the troops on the ground to secure even those places that they have won.When they only have to come back and do it all over again...that has to be pretty poor planning.You gain 10 feet.You need to be able to hold that 10 feet.That strikes me as how it would have to be.We can't do that with the amount of deployed that we have.Or so far we haven't been able to.They are getting streached pretty thin now.My concern is with the army and reserves and the national guard.The same people used over and over and over again.Something is gonna go pop here. For their sakes we need to get them home.We need an army and it should be healthy and I'm not sure how long we can hope to see that at the present conditions.

Posted by: Anonymous at November 21, 2005 8:16 PM

Wow, Dave, you are sure some piece of work. You got all the agitprop talking points down cold. First you say that the administration are calling Democrats Traitors (which they have never done), implying that since Treason is a hangable offense that they are calling for the murder of liberals, and then say "Watch your back!". Second, you turn around and directly call for the the murder of not only the people in the administration, not only the "conservative movement" as a whole (one wonders whether you would string up a hawkish libertarian like Cathy Young*), but imply that conservative America deserves this treatment also (many of you fellow countrymen you work with "funded" the party through small donations)

You obviously need mental help, and once again you are reveal yourself to be projecting; Conservatives are not (save for the ostracized fringe) calling for the death of their political foes...but you are. I'm done with this site as no intelligent debate can be had here and this site has become nothing but a pathetic left-wing version of Freeperland (though with an infinitesible readership and more extreme than Freep). I'm also reporting this site (with screen captures) to the FBI, so your persecution fantasies can finally be fulfilled.

*To Young: Pack your bags and keep them ready to go. What happened in your homeland will probably not happen here, but you never know...

Posted by: Pericles at November 22, 2005 4:38 AM

Ah, the good old White Man's Burden! We're already sitting in the middle of a civil war in Iraq, caused by our meddling, our insisting on them constructing a constitution that could never possibly have been acceptable to a huge chunk of the religious factions in Iraq. Why did we insist on that? PR for the Bush administration, of course, so they could demonstrate how we were gonna install "democracy" in the middle east. What business is it of ours what kind of government other countries want, so long as they're no particular threat to us?

I still have no idea why we're in this war, except PR for the Bush administration to keep themselves in power. I think our goal about democracy should be to preserve as much of it as we can RIGHT HERE and at this moment that's under tremendous threat -- from this same administration claiming we must force-feed it to the Iraqis. What's needed right now, I think, is UN oversight there, and us out of there as quickly as possible because we're just making the situation worse. I think for that to happen what's needed is for some other country to call for that.

Posted by: MJ at November 22, 2005 7:17 AM

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