May 17, 2008
-- by Dave Johnson
Counting all votes cast so far:
Popular Vote (w/FL & MI)**
Obama 16,680,827 which is 47.6%
Clinton 16,710,298 which is 47.7%
So, leave a comment about whose votes should count and whose shouldn't.
Posted by Dave Johnson at May 17, 2008 8:39 AM
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your *.. WITH FLORIDA AND MICHIGAN...
remember.. the candidates 'agreed' that IF these primaries were moved before the Democratic National Committee date.. they would NOT campaign in those states... Obama even pulled his name OFF the ballot in Michigan.... SO these #'s if you INCLUDE Michigan and Florida... you are being just like the Republicans, just like the mass media... just like the corporate oligarchy that really rules this country... those votes don't count... Hillary ran in those states, in violation of her own Party's rules....
Posted by: percy at May 17, 2008 10:20 PM
OK, so you think the voters of Michigan and Florida shouldn't count.
Tell me, how does Obama win the presidency without Michigan and Florida?
Posted by: Dave Johnson at May 17, 2008 10:27 PM
What Percy (and many Obamabots) forgot is that NO ONE FORCED Obama to remove his name from the Michigan ballot. Obama CHOSE to do that (you might note that he DIDN'T remove his name from the Florida ballot) but neither Dennis Kucinich nor Mike Gravel removed their names from the ballot (Christopher Dodd was also on the ballot but had withdrawn from the campaign following his disastrous finish in Iowa).
Also, what Percy forgot is that there was NO "RULE" prohibiting a candidate from being on the Michigan or Florida ballots. The ONLY "rule" was that no one could campaign in either state (the "participate" aspect, it should be noted, would have been violated by Obama as well since his name was only removed AFTER the DNC decided to take unspecified action against Michigan; it still doesn't explain why Obama "allowed" his name to remain on the Florida ballot). Hillary did NOT campaign in Michigan (although both Gravel and Kucinich DID).
Also, the Obama camp continues to pull the "ads were national so they don't count" but the fact remains that Obama DID have ads run in Florida CONTRARY TO DNC RULES. (Incidentally, the DNC did not, per the RULES, have the right to strip either state of ALL their delegates; the rules only authorized half the delegates being stripped, which IS, in fact, what happened with the Republican primaries which jumped the primary schedule in violation of the Republican schedule.)
Of course, this isn't too different from the way the Obama campaign (courtesy of David Axelrod) recently whined at how they lost Indiana because of Republican voting as "Dems for a day" even though the OBAMA campaign had encouraged exactly that behavior in earlier primaries and caucuses. Speaking of caucuses, why hasn't anyone pointed out just how undemocratic those really are? One source suggests that 227,000 people attended the Iowa caucuses this year; the caucuses are responsible for 45 delegates. New Hampshire, which has LESS than half the population of Iowa, saw more than 287,000 people go to the polls and vote for a candidate; the NH primary only produces 22 delegates. MORE people in NH actually VOTED for candidates who would win fewer delegates. Even MORE bizarrely, Minnesota, with more than twice as many people as Iowa, and with 27 more pledged delegates, saw FEWER people actually vote in the caucus than in Iowa--just over 214,000 people voted in Minnesota, 5% fewer than voted in Iowa. (I'd be willing to bet if Hillary had been wiping Obama's butt at the caucuses, we'd be getting a lot more "caucuses are unfair" treatment from the media.)
I notice you didn't count Iowa, Nevada, Washinton and Maine
Obama leads if you count those, so FLorida and Michigan count but not those four.
Hypocritical Hillary supporter.
Posted by: axt113 at May 18, 2008 5:29 AM
I voted in the Florida Primary.
It was clear at that time that the delegates would not be seated. In other words, I knew that my vote was symbolic ONLY!
So I voted to make a statement. I didn't vote for the candidate I strategically wanted to win.
Because the votes didn't count.
There are a number of my fellow Dem friends who didn't even bother to go to the polls that day BECAUSE THE VOTES DIDN'T COUNT.
So, now we are supposed to believe that our votes must count when THERE WERE NO CAMPAIGNS in the state?
I gotta say, Dean and the DNC really screwed us after the Republican dominated Legislature and the Republican Governor bent us over.
This is total BS.
Posted by: nuQler ostrich at May 18, 2008 6:34 AM
I'm a Hillary supporter? Just posting the vote totals makes me a Hillary supporter?
If you bother to read other posts here you would know that is not the case.
Posted by: Dave Johnson at May 18, 2008 6:52 AM
Then why did you exclude four states? Why'd you skew it to the only metric that Hillary leads in?
Posted by: axt113 at May 18, 2008 8:03 AM
To help people realize that this race is extremely close, pretty much tied, any way you look at it.
Everyone needs to see that just about HALF of Democrats support EACH of these great candidates. And people need to stop throwing silly accusations at each other and go after the Republicans.
Posted by: Dave Johnson at May 18, 2008 8:11 AM
Let me add to what I said.
In the general election the Republicans will run ads in Michigan and Florida reminding Democrats that the national party said their votes don't count in deciding the nominee. They will say that the Democratic Party doesn't want Florida or Michigan in their party.
This will have an effect on some percentage of the Democratic voters. Florida was very close in the last two elections - with Nader taking 90,000 votes in 2000, bringing about the election of Bush (and the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Iraqis. Thanks, Ralph.)
So it is extremely important that some way is found to bring Michigan and Ohio voters into the nomination process.
I don't care if that favors Obama or Hillary, but it HAS TO HAPPEN. Or we can lose the election just from that.
Posted by: Dave Johnson at May 18, 2008 9:36 AM
But it doesn't change that Obama is leading in the Popular vote, and once Hillary drops out Obama will let the delegations from Florida and Michigan be seated, heck in a few weeks he'll have enough delegates that even with Florida and Michigan he'll win
Posted by: axt113 at May 18, 2008 4:28 PM
I see. Hillary having more votes means Obama is leading in the popular vote.
Posted by: Dave Johnson at May 18, 2008 6:52 PM
Yeah maybe if you actually read the link you posted you would see this:
That's with all the states counted (including the four causcus states), Obama leads. So are you being willfully ignorant, a partisan hack or just stupid? Sorry but if you count Florida and Michigan, then you have to count the Caucus states as well, every vote counts right?
Posted by: axt113 at May 18, 2008 9:15 PM
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